Animal Testing

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Postby sonandheir » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:11 am

As you may or may not know, Moz has been criticised among the British press for posting the following on his true-to-you.net:

<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I support the efforts of the Animal Rights Militia in England and I understand why fur-farmers and so-called laboratory scientists are repaid with violence - it is because they deal in violence themselves and it's the only language they understand - the same principals that apply to war. You reach a point where you cannot reason with people. This is why the Animal Rights Militia and the Hunt Saboteurs exist. They are usually very intelligent people who are forced to act because the law is shameful or amoral.

In England, animals are hunted to the point of extinction, and then a great effort is made to save and reintroduce animals, and once they are re-established, they are then hunted back to the point of extinction. Everybody needs to hate something, it seems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<a href='http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1986256,00.html' target='_blank'>You can read an article about the incident here.</a>

So, is animal testing ever ethical? What gives us humans the right to subject animals to potentially harmful substances? Is violence the answer? Opinions?
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Postby helmoz » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:53 am

some animal testing helps us find new cures for disease etc., but a lot is pointless because animals' bodies are so different to ours so the results dont help us. i dont support testing cosmetics on animals cos its just for vanity. with drug testing/medical research i can see the justification but like i said if it causes animal suffering while giving us no useful data, whats the point? drugs affect humans and animals differently. thalidomide was tested on rats and caused no problems in them, then look what happened when humans took it. conversely penicillin causes no problems in ppl (apart from those who are allergic to it, but thats rare) but it is poisonous to guinea pigs, so if we'd tested it on them instead of on ppl then we would never have got anywhere.
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Postby Chorlton_Ruffian » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:31 pm

Moz deserves critiscism for this. The animal rights militia are animals themselves. They dug up someones grandma, because that person's company had links to another company that had links to animal testing.

Of course people should stand up for animal rights but the tactics these extremists use don't help anybody. Deluded they are.
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Postby robin » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:23 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with Morrissey, sorry guys!
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Postby elko » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:22 pm

Cruelty to animals is wrong. But why someone would ruin HUMAN lives to stop animal cruelty whilst so many other things are wrong with the world, I can't understand.
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Postby protest singer » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:37 am

I think the best thing we can do is buy cruelty-free products and to speak about our beliefs in a rational way. Look at your shampoo and other similar items, razors, etc. and if it doesn't say "not tested on animals" you can do something. They probably have a website and you can write to them and tell them you won't be purchasing their product again until they can put the cruelty-free symbol on.

It's true that any organization is going to have some people that just aren't right. It shouldn't reflect on the entire organization though. I personally do not believe violence is the answer to violence. It presents a picture that all people who care about animals are dangerous lunatics. When someone questions why you are vegetarian or support animal rights they already suspect that you may be an extremist. That's because the most extreme actions of the extremist groups get the most media attention.

On the other hand some of the things that are happening in laboratories are so incredibly cruel, and as noted above, often pointless, that I can see why some do resort to violent behavior and threats. I think some of them do it out of frustration. Some of them are probably just violent unstable people. It's too bad that these people represent a movement of people that are actually sane, caring, and aware.

I don't knock Morrissey for what he said. I feel in some ways he is right. Some of the people torturing these animals for science are not really human because they obviously must lack something. They must not have compassion. But when people's family's are attacked that doesn't show much compassion either. So while I feel he has the right to say what he said I disagree with him.

I don't know the answer except for each of us to do what we can by writing to companies that test, writing to politicians, and writing to newspapers and letting them know that a lot of people care about these issues and that we are ordinary working people, not raving lunatics with bombs digging up people's grandmothers.
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Postby weasey » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:44 am

When I first read this comment on true to you I thought it sounded a bit controversial, and i was a bit upset by it. I don't agree with animal testing and I think that scientists should put their efforts in to finding alternatives rather than following the same old methods, but at the same time I don't think the answer is to throw bricks through people's windows.

I once got caught up in an animal rights mob in cambridge and it was a horrible experience. I can understand why people might get so angry about this, but when the ARM resort to such measures as digging up the remains of innocent parties, it's feels like they have become a bit detached from the original cause.

If an animal's life is equal to that of a humans, then how does being violent to one justify violence against the other? I know people aren't morrissey's favourite things but he should be sensible enough not to promote extremists.....

By the way, did anyone else read Clarissa Dickson Wright's comments on the matter? "He must have cracked from a lack of animal protein....."
Last edited by weasey on Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby robin » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:01 pm

Why place animal life below humans, I've never understood that, the human race suffers from delusions of grandeur, nature can be horriblem but luckily we have the burden of conscience, we don't HAVE to inflict pain on others, its a very well known and accepted fact that vivisection is a false economy and actually has a very counter-productive effect on research as the results are irrelevent to us, BUT there is a multi BILLION pound industry that surrounds it.

Much like other harmful industries such as petrol and diesel there are many other alternative (cheaper, cleaner more efficient) fuels, everyone knows you can fun a diesel car on chip fat, BUT the industry that surrounds it is massive and brings in good taxes, creates jobs and in the short term is more lucritive....
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Postby Marcz » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:02 pm

I think it was Morrissey's right to say what he thinks of animal testing ; the fact that he's star and that people will care or not about his opinion makes it all different now. Point is, like somebody said before, the Animal militia is not better than the scientists and hunters. Like IRA used terrorism or violence, like what happens in Israel... There's nothing all good and there's nothing really all wrong. The important is information ; not the majority's one, but to get - as long as it's possible - both sides of the stories. Animal tests are sometimes necessary, but in the end, human tests are also needed... And believe me, i watched documentaries on TV where big pharmatical industries are mass testing on african people. They are obliging them to take the experimental medicines to get the regular ones...
Remember also when our dear french president Chric made authorized some atomic bombing in the 90's in the pacific ocean when everybody else was testing underground... Everybody cast the stone on France but think about it : DO WE NEED NUCLEAR TESTS AND WEAPONS AFTER ALL ? To me the real question was not how the tests are made, but rather shoudn't we stop the nuclear tests...
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Postby Mozzerella » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:31 pm

I don't think fighting violence with violence is the answer although I understand Moz's point of view. Fur-farming and animal testing are issues that raise (or should raise) strong feelings and they should be completely banned. Animal testing on all cosmetic products will be banned in Europe within a few years and that's good.

I don't accept animal tests on drugs either. I think there are alternative ways to do the tests. Besides, like Helen pointed out, animals' bodies differ from human bodies so there's no real guarantee on how the drug will affect people.
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Postby sonandheir » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:40 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-Mozzerella+Mar 17 2006, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mozzerella @ Mar 17 2006, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't accept animal tests on drugs either. I think there are alternative ways to do the tests. Besides, like Helen pointed out, animals' bodies differ from human bodies so there's no real guarantee on how the drug will affect people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4817178.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4817178.stm</a>

Very topical at the moment ...
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Postby Rodchenko » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:08 pm

Destroy animal lives is never rightous... They, the performers of these vile tests, deserve whatever they get... End barbarism with barbarism...
Last edited by Rodchenko on Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mozzerella » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:45 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-sonandheir+Mar 17 2006, 06:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sonandheir @ Mar 17 2006, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mozzerella+Mar 17 2006, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mozzerella @ Mar 17 2006, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't accept animal tests on drugs either. I think there are alternative ways to do the tests. Besides, like Helen pointed out, animals' bodies differ from human bodies so there's no real guarantee on how the drug will affect people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4817178.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4817178.stm</a>

Very topical at the moment ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So there. Hard evidence to support doubts against animal testing. Micro-testing on people sounds better.
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Postby Still Ill » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:54 pm

I'm torn, really. I tend to sit on the fence, I don't have strong convictions either way. Which is why I almost never discuss politics and religion and the list goes on.....!! But some things Morrissey has said on both animal rights and politics (while I mention it), has really had me scratching my head.
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Postby Pashernate_Lover » Sat May 13, 2006 9:44 pm

Violence perpetuates violence. And digging up somebodies grandmother... WTF?!?!?!?!? Anybody that would do that deserves to catch a drug resistant strain of syphillis and die insane for their cruelty.

The best way to not have drugs tested on animals is??? Well??? Anyone?? Too many people point out problems without offering solutions.

Do YOU want to be the test subject of a drug that could potentially cure a disease? I am in an infectious diseases class at present and there are a lot of cures out there that are yet to be discovered. If you don't agree with drugs being tested on things, get untested drugs and be a test subject yourself, or else just don't get treatment- it's simple, if you want to take a stand, take one- but don't just say "I don't agree with drug testing" and then go to the doctor when you are sick.

1/4 children die before the age of 5 in Sub-Saharan Africa of Malaria because Chloroquine doesn't work anymore-- so, 25% of babies or 100 monkeys? Just saying... offer a solution or refuse treatment if you disagree... but as for me, I choose the babies.
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